Senator Ali Ndume is the senator representing Borno South Senatorial District at the National Assembly. In this interview, he speaks on President Bola Tinubu’s cabinet reshuffle, why the Federal Government must cut cost of governance and the rejection of the Tax Reform Bill before the National Assembly by Northern governors, among other issues ANAYO EZUGWU reports

You appeared to believe in the Renewed Hope Agenda of Mr. President but have issues with its implementation even as you asked the President to sack more ministers who are underperforming.

Who are those ministers you would like to be sacked? I don’t think I want you to put me on the spot, but what I’m saying is that the President has made quite a significant move expected by Nigerians but is not enough. It should be a continuous process and it should also be an expanded process.

What I mean is that I don’t know how they arrived at the number of ministers sacked already but in those days, the people that the minister represented are consulted because constitutionally, you have one minister from each state, but in this government, more ministers are being nominated.

We have the highest number of ministers and the President himself recognizes the need to reduce the cost of governance and that calls for an inward look into the number of ministers in the government. What the constitution says is that the minimum is 37 ministers, one per state and an additional one from Federal Capital Territory (FCT).

So, my belief is that the President needs to look inward to see whether we can reduce the number but nhe has left some and brought in new ones and the number is still up there. It is not a personal thing but my opinion, and that may make sense and contribute towards good governance.

Not only that, the cost of governance should be brought down if you look at what other agencies of government are doing. The focus now may be on the presidency and the National Assembly but it should be across the board. Some organisations are not visible but the cost implication of running those agencies is enormous.

This is not the first time I am crying out for us to reduce the cost of governance because if you look at the budget, the recurrent expenditure keeps going up but the rate of employment is going down.

So, it doesn’t balance. Now that the President is looking around, I think he should look deep into it and reduce the cost of governance across board.

You also called for an urgent National Economic Summit to redirect the country’s economy; tell us more about that…

If you remember, the last time the Nigerian Economic Summit Group (NESG) had its summit in Abuja, many Nigerians listened to the Vice President of the World Bank, who gave out one harsh prescription that the removal of subsidy is a movement in the right direction and that Nigerians should stay on that, and that the result of that will start manifesting after 15 years. I said come on, who is this guy.

And there you are with Nigerian economics professors, who are renowned worldwide sitting down to listen to somebody who knows nothing about our economy. I lectured for 20 years and my knowledge of Economics is not deep, but I have common sense in basic Economics.

Assuming that at 64 years I’m diagnosed with cancer and a doctor comes to me to say take this prescription in the next 15 years you will be okay. I will tell him to get out of the place. That is what the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank are trying to tell us, when we have Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala, Akinwumi Adesina and so many others.

The President should as a matter of urgency organise a National Economic Summit and we don’t need any foreigners for that. You don’t need foreigners for economic reforms if you have experts in your backyard and some of these people have already volunteered.

I heard Okonjo-Iweala one time saying she is ready to come and talk to Nigerians and I was highly impressed when she was invited to the South East Governors Forum and she was talking with a lot of sense. She talked to Nigerians as a Nigerian to solve Nigeria’s problems.

Are you aware that most of these people we are talking about were all schooled by the World Bank and they worked there for many years?

The kind of prescription that worked in Europe may not work in Africa. Malaria can kill a European but malaria is part of us here.

If you want a Nigerian to be strong enough from childhood, you will feed him garri, pounded yam and others but if you do that to a white man, he will die. The prescription that Okonjo-Iweala and co will give Nigerians will be less harsh and workable than what we have now.

They know what could be done because they are Nigerians and they know what could be done in the Nigerian situation, but when you bring a foreigner, who knows nothing about us, he will give the kind of prescription that the World Bank and IMF are suggesting. Nigerians don’t want that kind of prescription and you don’t have to force it down their throat.

When you bring a foreigner, who knows nothing about us, he will give the kind of prescription that the World Bank and IMF are suggesting. Nigerians don’t want that kind of prescription and you don’t have to force it down their throat

But some will argue that the biggest challenge that needs to be addressed in Nigeria is the politicians…

I think so, but let me tell you that the problem we have in Nigeria is self-inflicted. If you look at it deeply, the World Bank and the IMF have hands in it and they don’t need to be here for us. I fear that they are deliberately driving us towards Venezuela. We don’t need to get there.

You know that Venezuela has the world’s largest oil reserve with less population and yet people are dying there as a result of wrong economic prescriptions. When we allow ourselves to be managed by somebody who doesn’t know our environment or the condition we are operating, then we are getting it wrong.

What do you make of the proposed Tax Reform Bill, which might lead to an increase in revenue but has been rejected by Northern governors?

It is simple; these taxes they are talking about are almost eroding the middle class in Nigeria because it is either you have it or you don’t have it. Those that are in the middle are being squeezed out.

If Nigerians can pay for those taxes, it is okay, but in the current situation, increasing tax is not an alternative and I will not support any tax increase. Let people start living and not surviving before talking about out new taxes. Let people have extra income then you can tax them

I want to always use an example of commonsense, looking at some Nigerians, you can easily ask them to donate one pint of blood to save somebody that needs it but if you take a pint of blood from many Nigerians, they will collapse and die and that is what they are trying to do to Nigerians.

Allow Nigerians to have enough blood in their body before you start asking for donations. The concern of the Northern governors is that poverty is more in the North and you want to introduce taxes again.

Tax those people who can afford it. Let me give you another example; those who can afford the taxes in Nigeria are not even paying the taxes. These big companies don’t even declare income not to talk of paying the appropriate taxes.

As a senator from the North; are you one of those pushing back against the Tax bill?

Yes, and I’m going to start campaigning against the increase in tax for now because it doesn’t only affect northerners but all average Nigerians. I’m not saying that people should not pay tax but we should not tax people who are struggling to survive. You are paying somebody N70,000 as a minimum wage, and all of a sudden the price of fuel goes up to N1,000

If you do the arithmetic, it would have been better if you allowed me to continue with the N30,000 minimum wage and let the price of fuel remain at N180. It is like giving me with one hand and taking it with the other hand. Let the tax authorities concentrate on those who are supposed to pay taxes. Let me give you an example.

Iin Abuja, if you go around, there are a lot of property that are not paying tax and fortunately, we have Nyesom Wike, who stands up trying to do something about it but people are not paying property taxes. The banks, for example, are making lots of money but they are not paying taxes and they are collecting tax from everywhere.

If you transfer money, they will collect money from you and if you receive money they will collect money from you and they declare profits. Go and check their taxes. Now, you want to squeeze somebody who is barely trying to survive because there are many.

The argument is that we need to increase the tax base and bring more people into the tax net for us to get tax returns…

You have to start from somewhere that is assessable and acceptable. I, at a time, proposed a bill for Communication Service Tax, but it didn’t see the light of the day.

It means that now that I’m handling two telephones there are people out there who cannot afford a telephone but if you can buy a phone then you can pay the tax associated with it. These are the kinds of taxes I will support.

Some members of the Senate and even your party, All Progressives Congress (APC), see you as a controversial person. Are you now less inclined to speak out because of the fear of possible sanction?

I am 64 years old and I thank God for what I am today. I’m a son of nobody who became somebody without knowing anybody, so I have to be very grateful to God.

I know a little bit about the Bible and the Quran and both says speak the truth even if your voice won’t be heard. That is what my grandfather, my father and my mother told me.

I’m mindful of my choice of words apart from the interview I granted, which led to my removal as the Senate Chief Whip.

Even if I have committed a treasonable offence, you don’t just kill me without hearing my side of the story but the party didn’t do that. The party said I used a strong word and I said I’m sorry for the choice of words.

After that people thought that I would keep quiet but I went to my constituency to visit farmers and encouraged them to go back to farming because the governor helped us to resettle 11 villages and the military provided them with security by escorting them to farm in the morning and back home in the evening.

When it was time for harvest, the Boko Haram started going there in the evening to steal from and the people started going there to guard their farm produce at night and in the process Boko Haram killed eight people.

I went there and what was the problem, the Nigerian Army in one of the villages didn’t have arms and ammunition, so I had to speak out.

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