Nigeria, Not Only Tax Needs To Be Reformed –Ndume

Senator Ali Ndume is the senator representing Borno South Senatorial District at the National Assembly. In this interview, he speaks on the Tax Reform Bills before the National Assembly and other issues. ANAYO EZUGWU reports

The phrase, you might have your way, but I will have my say, has become a sort of defining Ali Ndume and is likely to become something of an Ndume motto, do you think of it as something so seminal when you used that phrase?

No. It was just impulsive. Not only impulsive, I speak my mind and I speak from my heart, not from my mouth. I promised myself that I was not going to say anything.

Suddenly, they brought people from the presidency, who are charged with this reform and so I had to say something. And in the process, this unfortunate incident happened.

I felt bad, not for myself as a person, but for the institution that we call Senate. You can’t do a senator like that. It might be Ndume today. It will not be Ndume permanently, but the Senate will be there.

What was it that set you off at that Senate session?

I was very angry, especially when the Deputy President of the Senate, Jibrin Barau, used some abusive words and when I complained and demanded an apology, he felt arrogant because he was holding a gavel. He ruled me out of order. So, the next step is for me to leave him with God.

Because he was sitting down there as a Senate president, he’s supposed to be presiding. He’s just one among equals. And if you look at the equals, there is ranking. I’m by far senior to him. I’m older than him.

I’m more educated than him. I’m more exposed than him and he knows that. He shouldn’t have used that statement, even though he said it’s not personal. And he further worsened it by saying that it’s general. You can’t say what the Senate were doing is rhetoric.

You asked for an apology. Did you get it?

He refused but he apologized to me in private, which is not right. My grouse is not with the reforms. Nigeria needs to be reformed; not only the tax.

The government needs to be reformed in terms of governors. In fact, in terms of our people, our people’s attitude to governors needs to be changed through national reorientation.

So, I support reforms, but the timing is important. Where it will start is more important because, to me, the easiest and the first thing to do is to reform the government because the government is spending too much money.

I came here one time to complain about personnel and overhead costs of the government. We are not employing more but the cost of governance is increasing stupendously.

If you look at that and try to save it, even by half because so far, the spending on personnel and recurrent expenditure of 2024, which has already been expended.

For a capital project, we did not achieve up to 20 per cent as at November 28, you can check that. At best, it may be 30 per cent.

That’s a big misgovernance but I have been paid all my salaries and allowances up to November, so with other officials in government.

And we constitute less than five per cent of the total population. They are going to bring another budget, which I understand is going to run into about N50 trillion yet we have not achieved up to 30 per cent execution of the 2024 budget.

The 2023 budget is still running. I mean, that is supposed to be the area that we need to reform. And guess what; we passed the budget hurriedly. Let me use that word, hurriedly, so that the executive will be allowed to execute it, but up to now we’ve not achieved much.

So, why the hurry in passing the budget? Why the hurry in passing the reforms? Why the hurry? Why even jump the process? Why don’t you follow the processes?

But they would argue that they are following the process because it has just passed a second reading, going to the committee and from there, it’s going to go for public hearing for Nigerians to make their input…

No, it’s different. My quarrel is on that day was the issue was not even on the table. And it was not on supplementary order. That was my argument. I was not basing my point of order on that.

I was saying that the order of the business says that the order of the business is the procedure. And if there’s any other thing that you want to discuss, quickly you bring in a supplementary order paper, which they didn’t do. That was wrong.

The first thing to do is to reform the government because the government is spending too much money… We are not employing but the cost of governance is increasing stupendously

And then, you don’t lump four bills, pass it at one time, in two hours, when they are very controversial and very contentious, and have not galvanized national consensus.

Already, the leaders in the states have taken a position that it is better to withdraw it, then consult widely and then bring an acceptable document. When you say it’s an executive bill, the governors are part of the executive.

But there will be a public hearing…

No! That is supposed to come before they bring the bill. What I’m talking about now is not about public hearings. What I’m saying is under normal circumstances, even such policies and reforms you even have to say it when you are canvassing for the votes of the citizens. Donald Trump has already talked during his campaign that he was going to reduce taxes.

And why is he doing that? Because of inflation, which is global and here we are, having an inflation rate more than their own, yet we are trying to tinker with the tax. Trump said he’s going to go after the big guys, the big companies, and then make money, save money from them.

Like, you know, the tax in the UK, if you are a billionaire and your income is above that, you pay up to 45 per cent tax. There are four things about the bill that I don’t like. One, and important, is the timing.

The timing is wrong. What Nigeria is going through does not warrant talking about any kind of reform that will touch on tax. Nigeria is going through the most difficult time because of inflation, poverty and our exchange rate, which is tied to the dollar, makes prices of commodities go up.

The timing, number one is wrong. Number two is the issue of derivation. That is a big problem too. It’s controversial because it has to do with the constitution. It is contradictory to what they are talking about. And even declassification is something that I read and we were arguing that maybe they need to come and educate me.

But that’s why they came to the National Assembly to try and enlighten the senators….

Do I look like somebody that is not enlightened? There are three problems or four with the reform. Number one is the timing. Number two is the issue of derivation. Number three is the rates of VAT that they intend to increase gradually from the current 7.5 per cent.

Ghana, our neighbour, is reducing their VAT and they are trying to engage in industrial reforms instead of tax reforms. These tax reforms can come better.

These guys in the Federal Inland Revenue Service (FIRS) have shown determination and they are doing well, especially the young man, Zach Adedeji.

He has raised the tax collection. Why don’t you continue blocking the loopholes, collect more, tell Nigerians why you need to centralize it, as they are saying, bit by bit, and we’ll say, go ahead, because he has shown us the capacity.

My argument is not related to that even though the observation or the point of order raised by Abdul Ningi, Order 12 of our Standing Order, is right. You don’t just wake up and admit anybody. And then, you know that this thing is contentious.

Why do you suspend the Standing Orders and ask these people to come because you are in a hurry and because many people are trying to be more Catholic than the Pope?

You complained about the fact that the country is borrowing so much money to fund whatever it is it wants to do but tax reform is a necessary thing in this country, isn’t it?

I want to be speaking as a common man. If you are collecting more taxes, and this government has done well in collecting more taxes, and the Customs also have done well by even surpassing their target, then why borrow it?

Where is the money that they have they have collected? If we can collect more under this circumstance, and the customs can do better under this circumstance, why don’t you encourage them?

As I said, make sure that loopholes and leakages are blocked. What we are saying, or what I’m saying is that the executives should concentrate on raising more revenue, blocking leakages, and not being in a hurry to borrow.

I said at a forum that what makes me feel bad is the involvement or dependence on the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank in our economic policies. That further enslaves us because it doesn’t work.

And I must be honest with you; when I saw that the World Bank is taking charge, or getting involved by offering to help us do our budget, I felt bad because that’s the work of the National Assembly.

And if we need training for that, or if the executives don’t know how to do it, they have to bring it before us. We have more experts, who can look at it. I say experts because we are the people who relate to our citizens.